Builders' sand for drainage?

[Andy Hunt]

I have some builders' sand hanging around in my yard, and I was going to use
it for drainage in some new pots I've bought today.

My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand contains lots
of chemicals which won't do plants any good, because it is building sand.

The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years - does anyone
know if my dad's correct about this, and if so, whether the rain would have
washed the sand clean by now?

Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an inch-thick layer of
drainage material at the bottom of each pot, would it be OK?

Thanks in anticipation!

Andrew

[shazzbat]

Post by Andy Hunt
I have some builders' sand hanging around in my yard, and I was going to use
it for drainage in some new pots I've bought today.
My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand contains lots
of chemicals which won't do plants any good, because it is building sand.
The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years - does anyone
know if my dad's correct about this, and if so, whether the rain would have
washed the sand clean by now?
Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an inch-thick layer of
drainage material at the bottom of each pot, would it be OK?

As with a lot of people, my garden soil is/was largely builders rubble
including the mortar etc that they always leave on site. It doesn't seem to
do much harm to the plants, although I suspect if used in plant pots it
would be washed away in heavy rains. I don't know what chemicals if any it
has in it, but if it's been lying around for three years I would expect it
to be riddled with catcrap, but that's a whole different thread/flamewar.

Better would be to break up the polystyrene you got wrapped round your
Christmas X-box or whatever and use that.

HTH

Steve

[Andy Hunt]

Post by shazzbat
Better would be to break up the polystyrene you got wrapped round your
Christmas X-box or whatever and use that.

Lol I have some from an oil-burner that my sister gave me. I don't have a
television or radio, let along an x-box . . . my internet connection and my
stereo are the only hints of technology here! But I will certainly take your
advice on the expanded polystyrene.

Yours organically,


Andrew

[Spider]

Hi Andy,
I'm not a builder and can't answer the chemical side of your question.
However, most gardening experts agree that builders' sand does not promote
drainage as the particles are too small and smooth. Sharp sand or grit is
usually advised.
A modern and usually free (recycled) drainage medium is polystyrene, as used
in packaging. It has the advantage of being very light and clean. Again, I
don't know if there is any chemical leakage. However, most ornamental
plants seem happy with it, but be cautious of planting vegatables with it if
you're worried.
Spider

Post by Andy Hunt
I have some builders' sand hanging around in my yard, and I was going to use
it for drainage in some new pots I've bought today.
My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand contains lots
of chemicals which won't do plants any good, because it is building sand.
The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years - does anyone
know if my dad's correct about this, and if so, whether the rain would have
washed the sand clean by now?
Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an inch-thick layer of
drainage material at the bottom of each pot, would it be OK?
Thanks in anticipation!
Andrew

[JennyC]

Post by Andy Hunt
I have some builders' sand hanging around in my yard, and I was going to use
it for drainage in some new pots I've bought today.
My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand contains lots
of chemicals which won't do plants any good, because it is building sand.
The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years - does anyone
know if my dad's correct about this, and if so, whether the rain would have
washed the sand clean by now?
Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an inch-thick layer of
drainage material at the bottom of each pot, would it be OK?
Thanks in anticipation!
Andrew

I'm interested in this too as I have used builders sand in the past for making
cacti mix without any ill effects.

Here's a couple of sites that says it's OK to use :
http://www.users.voicenet.com/~mslater/sand_bed.htm
http://www.thegardenhelper.com/rootlessjade.htm
http://www.kings.co.nz/GrowingGuides.cfm?NLID=50

Jenny

[Nick Maclaren]

Post by JennyC
I'm interested in this too as I have used builders sand in the past for making
cacti mix without any ill effects.
http://www.users.voicenet.com/~mslater/sand_bed.htm
http://www.thegardenhelper.com/rootlessjade.htm
http://www.kings.co.nz/GrowingGuides.cfm?NLID=50

Also Cormaic did, too, and he is both a builder and gardener.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Nick Maclaren]

Post by Andy Hunt
I have some builders' sand hanging around in my yard, and I was going to use
it for drainage in some new pots I've bought today.
My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand contains lots
of chemicals which won't do plants any good, because it is building sand.

Pour him another tankard of beer and sit him in the corner with the
other old fogies. He doesn't have a clue, I am afraid. Firstly,
builders' sand DOESN'T have chemicals added (and has any salt washed
out, to prevent trouble making mortar). Secondly, why on earth would
builders add chemicals (which cost money) if they could avoid it?
And, thirdly, they would have leached out.

Post by Andy Hunt
The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years - does anyone
know if my dad's correct about this, and if so, whether the rain would have
washed the sand clean by now?

What it will have done is to wash the 'softness' out of it, leaving
it as unsuitable for mortar - I had a lot like that, and got caught.
However, the converse is that it will be OK for using to increase
drainage! It won't be as good as sharp sand, but will do. You can
also dry it and sieve it (yes, using a kitchen sieve) to make fine
sand suitable for filling in between paving blocks.

Post by Andy Hunt
Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an inch-thick layer of
drainage material at the bottom of each pot, would it be OK?

Yes. No problem. Just remember that it will be somewhat less free
draining than sharp sand, and will clog quite a lot faster, but
otherwise use it as sharp sand.

Now, this does assume that it was in a relatively shallow layer. If
it was in a high pile, then the softness probably WON'T have washed
out enough, at least at the bottom. You can test by mixing it up
with water in a bottle and seeing how fast it settles. If it all
settles very fast, it is washed; if not, it isn't.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[kenty ;-)]

I personally wouldn't use this sand for drainage in pots there are better
materials available,i.e gravel,polystyrene,crocks,pebbles etc these would
provide better drainage,sand would probably wash out of the pot leaving no
drainage!If you want to get rid of it mix it in with the soil in your
border.
kenty

Post by Nick Maclaren

Post by Andy Hunt
I have some builders' sand hanging around in my yard, and I was going to use
it for drainage in some new pots I've bought today.
My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand contains lots
of chemicals which won't do plants any good, because it is building sand.

Pour him another tankard of beer and sit him in the corner with the
other old fogies. He doesn't have a clue, I am afraid. Firstly,
builders' sand DOESN'T have chemicals added (and has any salt washed
out, to prevent trouble making mortar). Secondly, why on earth would
builders add chemicals (which cost money) if they could avoid it?
And, thirdly, they would have leached out.

Post by Andy Hunt
The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years - does anyone
know if my dad's correct about this, and if so, whether the rain would have
washed the sand clean by now?

What it will have done is to wash the 'softness' out of it, leaving
it as unsuitable for mortar - I had a lot like that, and got caught.
However, the converse is that it will be OK for using to increase
drainage! It won't be as good as sharp sand, but will do. You can
also dry it and sieve it (yes, using a kitchen sieve) to make fine
sand suitable for filling in between paving blocks.

Post by Andy Hunt
Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an inch-thick layer of
drainage material at the bottom of each pot, would it be OK?

Yes. No problem. Just remember that it will be somewhat less free
draining than sharp sand, and will clog quite a lot faster, but
otherwise use it as sharp sand.
Now, this does assume that it was in a relatively shallow layer. If
it was in a high pile, then the softness probably WON'T have washed
out enough, at least at the bottom. You can test by mixing it up
with water in a bottle and seeing how fast it settles. If it all
settles very fast, it is washed; if not, it isn't.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Andy Hunt]

Thanks Nick, I've forwarded this onto my dad!

There isn't that much of the sand, so I think it will probably have been
washed through by now. There was all sorts of stuff growing in it anyway,
like sphagnum moss, ferns and evening primrose, so I think it's OK.

Happy New Year everyone!


Andrew

Post by Nick Maclaren

Post by Andy Hunt
I have some builders' sand hanging around in my yard, and I was going to use
it for drainage in some new pots I've bought today.
My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand contains lots
of chemicals which won't do plants any good, because it is building sand.

Pour him another tankard of beer and sit him in the corner with the
other old fogies. He doesn't have a clue, I am afraid. Firstly,
builders' sand DOESN'T have chemicals added (and has any salt washed
out, to prevent trouble making mortar). Secondly, why on earth would
builders add chemicals (which cost money) if they could avoid it?
And, thirdly, they would have leached out.

Post by Andy Hunt
The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years - does anyone
know if my dad's correct about this, and if so, whether the rain would have
washed the sand clean by now?

What it will have done is to wash the 'softness' out of it, leaving
it as unsuitable for mortar - I had a lot like that, and got caught.
However, the converse is that it will be OK for using to increase
drainage! It won't be as good as sharp sand, but will do. You can
also dry it and sieve it (yes, using a kitchen sieve) to make fine
sand suitable for filling in between paving blocks.

Post by Andy Hunt
Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an inch-thick layer of
drainage material at the bottom of each pot, would it be OK?

Yes. No problem. Just remember that it will be somewhat less free
draining than sharp sand, and will clog quite a lot faster, but
otherwise use it as sharp sand.
Now, this does assume that it was in a relatively shallow layer. If
it was in a high pile, then the softness probably WON'T have washed
out enough, at least at the bottom. You can test by mixing it up
with water in a bottle and seeing how fast it settles. If it all
settles very fast, it is washed; if not, it isn't.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Simon Avery]

"Andy Hunt" <***@megalomania.co.uk> wrote:

Hello Andy

AH> My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand
AH> contains lots of chemicals which won't do plants any good,
AH> because it is building sand.

This may be a local thing, but down here "building sand" is a 50/50
mixture of soft and sharp sand. It does drain, but not as well as 100%
sharp will.

AH> The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years -
AH> does anyone know if my dad's correct about this, and if so,
AH> whether the rain would have washed the sand clean by now?

Building sand can have high concentrations of salt in it - "washed
sand" is commonly available and may be implied depending on area, but
there's unlikely to be anything else - any mortar additives are put in
during mixing, or with the cement - never with the bulk like sand,
AFAIK.

And three years of rain will certainly have washed that lot out. The
only "harmful additives" you can expect are cats turds if it has been
uncovered for that length of time.

AH> Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an
AH> inch-thick layer of drainage material at the bottom of each
AH> pot, would it be OK?

Should think so.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK � http://www.digdilem.org/

[Nick Maclaren]

Post by Simon Avery
Building sand can have high concentrations of salt in it - "washed
sand" is commonly available and may be implied depending on area, but
there's unlikely to be anything else - any mortar additives are put in
during mixing, or with the cement - never with the bulk like sand,
AFAIK.

As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in it for many
decades - at least not if bought from an even half-respectable person.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Simon Avery]

***@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Hello Nick

NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.

They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?

But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK � http://www.digdilem.org/

[JennyC]

Post by Simon Avery
Hello Nick
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

try putting some sand in a container and adding water. Stir. Leave to settle.
Taste water ?

Jenny :~)

[martin]

Post by JennyC

Post by Simon Avery
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

try putting some sand in a container and adding water. Stir. Leave to settle.
Taste water ?

Throw away water, rinse container, add G&T, ice and a sliver of
lime...
Answer the question: Which did you prefer?

Shaken but not stirred...

[Andy Hunt]

Post by martin

Post by JennyC
try putting some sand in a container and adding water. Stir. Leave to settle.
Taste water ?

Throw away water, rinse container, add G&T, ice and a sliver of
lime...
Answer the question: Which did you prefer?
Shaken but not stirred...

Ah! A new cocktail . . . "Sloe memorable brew behind the rocks on the beach"
. . . ?

Andrew

[doug.]

Post by martin

Post by JennyC

Post by Simon Avery
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

try putting some sand in a container and adding water. Stir. Leave to settle.
Taste water ?

Throw away water, rinse container, add G&T, ice and a sliver of
lime...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That is good advice in my opinion. Never put into your mouth anything
that could be doubtful. (Experience speaking!, - of life in the
tropics and deserts, where you drink twelve pints of water a day in the
hot season, or else!, )
I feel sure there is a test for salt in water but I'm darned if I can
remember it.
Doug.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Post by martin
Answer the question: Which did you prefer?
Shaken but not stirred...

[Rusty Hinge]

Post by JennyC

Post by Simon Avery
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

try putting some sand in a container and adding water. Stir. Leave to settle.
Taste water ?

Mmmmmmm! Cats' penc!

[Franz Heymann]

Post by JennyC

Post by Simon Avery
Hello Nick
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

try putting some sand in a container and adding water. Stir. Leave to settle.
Taste water ?

Urine from small furry mammals?

Franz

[martin]

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:04:35 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"

Post by JennyC

Post by JennyC

Post by Simon Avery
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

try putting some sand in a container and adding water. Stir. Leave to

settle.

Post by JennyC
Taste water ?

Urine from small furry mammals?

Oh you dirty beast :-)

[Nick Maclaren]

Post by Simon Avery
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.

When laid down, sea sand would contain salt, but almost all sources
will have been washed clean. There is probably salty sand in the UK,
but it will not be sold unwashed by respectable builders' merchants,
as the salt interferes with cement and other uses and salty sand does
not meet the relevant standards.

Obvious, when using sand for seriously sensitive plants (e.g. orchids
or carnivorous ones), it should be well washed. Most plants don't
mind a trace, and quite a lot can handle actively salty soil if they
are soaked when they are watered.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Rusty Hinge]

Post by Nick Maclaren
Obvious, when using sand for seriously sensitive plants (e.g. orchids
or carnivorous ones), it should be well washed. Most plants don't
mind a trace, and quite a lot can handle actively salty soil if they
are soaked when they are watered.

Many of the British wild orchids don't mind quite a lot of salt. Links I
know on the west coast of the Isle of Lewis (regularly doused in heavy
sea spray) are thick with Orchis mascula; Spiranthes romanzofficiana
Subsp. stricta; Dactylorhiza incarnata s/s coccinia; D purpurella; D
Kerryensis; D maculata s/s ericetorum; D fuchsii s/s hebridensis and
others I haven't identified.

One was rather like D ericatorum in form, but the flowers were a
transparent dull orange, and the leaves were low and more-or-less
horizontal like a stripey butterwort. I took a photo of it, but the
light was dreadful, and the next day I couldn't find it again.

[Simon Avery]

***@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Hello Nick

NM> When laid down, sea sand would contain salt, but almost all
NM> sources will have been washed clean. There is probably
NM> salty sand in the UK, but it will not be sold unwashed by
NM> respectable builders' merchants, as the salt interferes with
NM> cement and other uses and salty sand does not meet the
NM> relevant standards.

But that does assume you bought it from a builders' merchants.

Anyway, wondering way off topic now. OP's sand would've been washed
adequately by being left outside for three years.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK � http://www.digdilem.org/

[Rusty Hinge]

Post by Simon Avery
Hello Nick
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.

The tens of thousands of years that's been there, any salt would have
been leached out, whatever the source.

[Nick Maclaren]

Post by Rusty Hinge

Post by Simon Avery
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.

The tens of thousands of years that's been there, any salt would have
been leached out, whatever the source.

If it was on the surface, yes. But there is a lot of salt underneath
Cheshire, that has not leached in millions of years. I could very
easily believe that many such deposits are mixtures of sand and salt,
and that there are places where salty sand is an accessible mineral
(and not near a current seashore).


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Sacha]

Nick Maclaren1/1/04 2:37
***@cus.cam.ac.ukbt1baf$1qr$***@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk

<snip>

Post by Nick Maclaren
If it was on the surface, yes. But there is a lot of salt underneath
Cheshire, that has not leached in millions of years. I could very
easily believe that many such deposits are mixtures of sand and salt,
and that there are places where salty sand is an accessible mineral
(and not near a current seashore).

Thinking of which, a few years ago, we went to a hilltop village in
Provence, called Les Baux. It's thousands of feet above sea level and the
pathways and walls are studded here and there with limpet shells - it was
fascinating!

[Rusty Hinge]

Post by Nick Maclaren

Post by Rusty Hinge
The tens of thousands of years that's been there, any salt would have
been leached out, whatever the source.

If it was on the surface, yes. But there is a lot of salt underneath
Cheshire, that has not leached in millions of years. I could very
easily believe that many such deposits are mixtures of sand and salt,
and that there are places where salty sand is an accessible mineral
(and not near a current seashore).

I don't think sand at that depth would remain in free granular form, but
would be sandstone by now.

That salt in Cheshire has been there for a very long time, isn't very
close to the surface, and is, IIRC, sandwiched between two impervious
layers of rock.

So much sand lies at the surface that no-one is going to mine the stuff,
anyway.

[Nick Maclaren]

Post by Rusty Hinge

Post by Nick Maclaren

Post by Rusty Hinge
The tens of thousands of years that's been there, any salt would have
been leached out, whatever the source.

If it was on the surface, yes. But there is a lot of salt underneath
Cheshire, that has not leached in millions of years. I could very
easily believe that many such deposits are mixtures of sand and salt,
and that there are places where salty sand is an accessible mineral
(and not near a current seashore).

I don't think sand at that depth would remain in free granular form, but
would be sandstone by now.

Not necessarily. To create sandstone, the pressure and temperature
has to be high enough to liquify something to glue the grains
together.

Post by Rusty Hinge
That salt in Cheshire has been there for a very long time, isn't very
close to the surface, and is, IIRC, sandwiched between two impervious
layers of rock.

Yes.

Post by Rusty Hinge
So much sand lies at the surface that no-one is going to mine the stuff,
anyway.

I was thinking of the (fairly common) circumstance where something
else (like salt) is mined, and the sand is a waste product.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Rusty Hinge]

Post by Nick Maclaren

Post by Rusty Hinge
I don't think sand at that depth would remain in free granular form, but
would be sandstone by now.

Not necessarily. To create sandstone, the pressure and temperature
has to be high enough to liquify something to glue the grains
together.

Pressure maybe, but a lot of sandstone is 'cemented' with precipitated lime.

Post by Nick Maclaren

Post by Rusty Hinge
That salt in Cheshire has been there for a very long time, isn't very
close to the surface, and is, IIRC, sandwiched between two impervious
layers of rock.

Yes.

Post by Rusty Hinge
So much sand lies at the surface that no-one is going to mine the stuff,
anyway.

I was thinking of the (fairly common) circumstance where something
else (like salt) is mined, and the sand is a waste product.

I can't think of anywhere where salt is mined mixed with sand - though
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. The salt in Cheshire is more-or-less
rock, and riddled with tunnels and galleries. I've always meant to visit
the salt museum when I've been in Northwich: I shall one day - my
brother and his family live near there. (And there's lots of surface
sand there too - his village is Sandiway.)

[Franz Heymann]

"Nick Maclaren" <***@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:bt216u$g7k$***@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...

[snip]

Post by Nick Maclaren
Not necessarily. To create sandstone, the pressure and temperature
has to be high enough to liquify something to glue the grains
together.

Not necessarily, if the groundwater is saturated with dissolved lime.

Franz

[Andy Hunt]

Post by Franz Heymann
[snip]

Post by Nick Maclaren
Not necessarily. To create sandstone, the pressure and temperature
has to be high enough to liquify something to glue the grains
together.

Not necessarily, if the groundwater is saturated with dissolved lime.

Planet creation for beginners. Slartibartfast would have been proud . . . as
long as the fijords get done properly.

;-)

Andrew
"Is it not written, ye are gods?" - Jesus Christ

[Rusty Hinge]

Post by Andy Hunt

Post by Franz Heymann
[snip]

Post by Nick Maclaren
Not necessarily. To create sandstone, the pressure and temperature
has to be high enough to liquify something to glue the grains
together.

Not necessarily, if the groundwater is saturated with dissolved lime.

Planet creation for beginners. Slartibartfast would have been proud . . . as
long as the fijords get done properly.

For that you should bare and granite....

[Andy Hunt]

Post by Rusty Hinge

Post by Andy Hunt

Post by Franz Heymann
[snip]

Post by Nick Maclaren
Not necessarily. To create sandstone, the pressure and temperature
has to be high enough to liquify something to glue the grains
together.

Not necessarily, if the groundwater is saturated with dissolved lime.

Planet creation for beginners. Slartibartfast would have been proud . . . as
long as the fijords get done properly.

For that you should bare and granite....

Lol :-)

You guys really do "rock around the clock"! I can't say I know too much
about it, I'm a bit of a new "strata". But then . . . "igneous" is bliss, in
many ways.

"Oh my Geode," I hear you say. Sorry - no "pumice" intended.

Andrew

[Franz Heymann]

Post by Nick Maclaren

Post by Rusty Hinge

Post by Simon Avery
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.

The tens of thousands of years that's been there, any salt would have
been leached out, whatever the source.

If it was on the surface, yes. But there is a lot of salt underneath
Cheshire, that has not leached in millions of years.

Probably only in places where the geological structure is such as to protect
it from mobile ground water.

Post by Nick Maclaren
I could very
easily believe that many such deposits are mixtures of sand and salt,
and that there are places where salty sand is an accessible mineral
(and not near a current seashore).

Franz

[doug.]

Post by Franz Heymann

Post by Nick Maclaren

Post by Rusty Hinge

Post by Simon Avery
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.

The tens of thousands of years that's been there, any salt would have
been leached out, whatever the source.

If it was on the surface, yes. But there is a lot of salt underneath
Cheshire, that has not leached in millions of years.

Probably only in places where the geological structure is such as to protect
it from mobile ground water.

Post by Nick Maclaren
I could very
easily believe that many such deposits are mixtures of sand and salt,
and that there are places where salty sand is an accessible mineral
(and not near a current seashore).

Franz

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For quite some time I used to fetch buckets of medium grit from just
above the tidemarks area of the beach, strew it down my sloping path and
leave a hosepipe running at the top end. Then later I mixed it with
compost and peat and dug it into some borders. Also used it for potting.
No harm to plants was noticed.
However, I once got some sacks full of the old straw bedding used for
deep litter on shed floors for fattening cows, and used that as compost.
After its use it had been stacked five years. The particular border it
was dug into promptly decided to do very poorly for a year or three.
I reached the conclusion that it was the funny feed and hormones and
chemics fed to the static cows which "done the damage".
("Static" == meaning not moving, being herded in sheds).

[Rusty Hinge]

Post by doug.
However, I once got some sacks full of the old straw bedding used for
deep litter on shed floors for fattening cows, and used that as compost.
After its use it had been stacked five years. The particular border it
was dug into promptly decided to do very poorly for a year or three.
I reached the conclusion that it was the funny feed and hormones and
chemics fed to the static cows which "done the damage".
("Static" == meaning not moving, being herded in sheds).

If it was just stacked and not composted, it would rob the soil of
nitrogen while it decayed. There's the possibility too, that if it was
some time ago, the feed had contained an antibiotic, and this was
killing the soil bacteria.

[doug.]

Post by Rusty Hinge

Post by doug.
However, I once got some sacks full of the old straw bedding used for
deep litter on shed floors for fattening cows, and used that as compost.
After its use it had been stacked five years. The particular border it
was dug into promptly decided to do very poorly for a year or three.
I reached the conclusion that it was the funny feed and hormones and
chemics fed to the static cows which "done the damage".
("Static" == meaning not moving, being herded in sheds).

If it was just stacked and not composted, it would rob the soil of
nitrogen while it decayed. There's the possibility too, that if it was
some time ago, the feed had contained an antibiotic, and this was
killing the soil bacteria.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thank you Mr. Rusty.
Yes!, Good thinking!. I go for the antibiotic approach now you mention
it. The borders have recovered now, but six apple bushes I had grafted
on dwarf rootstock gradually failed with canker etc. Mind you, I am up
the N'West on the tip of the Furness peninsular and when I see those
lovely apples from warmer climes I think I am on a bum steer here,
climate-wise, though my pears, plums and blackberries flourish.
On another tack , some time ago I was offered a small stack of
well-rotted hay from a silo. I rang the Min of Ag & Fish and they said
it was just inert matter and could be used but the result would not be
encouraging, so I abandoned the idea. A farmer friend I was visiting
was making up a silo load and he was putting very dilute treacle into
it. I don't know whether it was for to add a bit of taste or to assist
the composting.
Doug.


Doug.

[Franz Heymann]

Post by doug.

Post by Rusty Hinge

Post by doug.
However, I once got some sacks full of the old straw bedding used for
deep litter on shed floors for fattening cows, and used that as compost.
After its use it had been stacked five years. The particular border it
was dug into promptly decided to do very poorly for a year or three.
I reached the conclusion that it was the funny feed and hormones and
chemics fed to the static cows which "done the damage".
("Static" == meaning not moving, being herded in sheds).

If it was just stacked and not composted, it would rob the soil of
nitrogen while it decayed. There's the possibility too, that if it was
some time ago, the feed had contained an antibiotic, and this was
killing the soil bacteria.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thank you Mr. Rusty.
Yes!, Good thinking!. I go for the antibiotic approach now you mention
it. The borders have recovered now, but six apple bushes I had grafted
on dwarf rootstock gradually failed with canker etc. Mind you, I am up
the N'West on the tip of the Furness peninsular and when I see those
lovely apples from warmer climes I think I am on a bum steer here,
climate-wise, though my pears, plums and blackberries flourish.
On another tack , some time ago I was offered a small stack of
well-rotted hay from a silo. I rang the Min of Ag & Fish and they said
it was just inert matter and could be used but the result would not be
encouraging, so I abandoned the idea. A farmer friend I was visiting
was making up a silo load and he was putting very dilute treacle into
it. I don't know whether it was for to add a bit of taste or to assist
the composting.

The treacle ferments in the silage. It makes booze for the animals to keep
them happy while eating that substitute for grass.

Franz

[doug.]

Post by doug.

Post by doug.

Post by Rusty Hinge

Post by doug.
However, I once got some sacks full of the old straw bedding used for
deep litter on shed floors for fattening cows, and used that as

compost.

Post by doug.

Post by Rusty Hinge

Post by doug.
After its use it had been stacked five years. The particular border it
was dug into promptly decided to do very poorly for a year or three.
I reached the conclusion that it was the funny feed and hormones and
chemics fed to the static cows which "done the damage".
("Static" == meaning not moving, being herded in sheds).

If it was just stacked and not composted, it would rob the soil of
nitrogen while it decayed. There's the possibility too, that if it was
some time ago, the feed had contained an antibiotic, and this was
killing the soil bacteria.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thank you Mr. Rusty.
Yes!, Good thinking!. I go for the antibiotic approach now you mention
it. The borders have recovered now, but six apple bushes I had grafted
on dwarf rootstock gradually failed with canker etc. Mind you, I am up
the N'West on the tip of the Furness peninsular and when I see those
lovely apples from warmer climes I think I am on a bum steer here,
climate-wise, though my pears, plums and blackberries flourish.
On another tack , some time ago I was offered a small stack of
well-rotted hay from a silo. I rang the Min of Ag & Fish and they said
it was just inert matter and could be used but the result would not be
encouraging, so I abandoned the idea. A farmer friend I was visiting
was making up a silo load and he was putting very dilute treacle into
it. I don't know whether it was for to add a bit of taste or to assist
the composting.

The treacle ferments in the silage. It makes booze for the animals to keep
them happy while eating that substitute for grass.
Franz

+++++++++++++
That's a rather quaint way of putting it, Franz!.
Perhaps that's why we see female cows lifting themselves on to each
other's haunches, - nothing to do with that-there-'ere, - but that
they're just a bit pie-eyed!. (:^\)
Doug.

[Rusty Hinge1]

Post by doug.
Yes!, Good thinking!. I go for the antibiotic approach now you mention
it. The borders have recovered now, but six apple bushes I had grafted
on dwarf rootstock gradually failed with canker etc. Mind you, I am up
the N'West on the tip of the Furness peninsular and when I see those
lovely apples from warmer climes I think I am on a bum steer here,
climate-wise, though my pears, plums and blackberries flourish.

You may be encouraged by the excellent (if rather small0 apples which
grew on a croft I knew on the Isle of Lewis.

Post by doug.
On another tack , some time ago I was offered a small stack of
well-rotted hay from a silo. I rang the Min of Ag & Fish and they said
it was just inert matter and could be used but the result would not be
encouraging, so I abandoned the idea.

I wonder if they wanted it? For well-rotted hay, read leafmould. OK, it
is probably not as good as broad-leaved plants' leafmould because it
doesn't contain a lot of the waste chemicals shed leaves do, but as a
conditioner it would have helped your soil structure.

Post by doug.
A farmer friend I was visiting
was making up a silo load and he was putting very dilute treacle into
it. I don't know whether it was for to add a bit of taste or to assist
the composting.

If the contents of the silo were for feeding cattle, it was to balance
the nutrients. I'm going to be good from now onwards - I don't want to
be reincarnated as a cow.....

[doug.]

Post by Rusty Hinge1

Post by doug.
Yes!, Good thinking!. I go for the antibiotic approach now you mention
it. The borders have recovered now, but six apple bushes I had grafted
on dwarf rootstock gradually failed with canker etc. Mind you, I am up
the N'West on the tip of the Furness peninsular and when I see those
lovely apples from warmer climes I think I am on a bum steer here,
climate-wise, though my pears, plums and blackberries flourish.

You may be encouraged by the excellent (if rather small0 apples which
grew on a croft I knew on the Isle of Lewis.

Post by doug.
On another tack , some time ago I was offered a small stack of
well-rotted hay from a silo. I rang the Min of Ag & Fish and they said
it was just inert matter and could be used but the result would not be
encouraging, so I abandoned the idea.

I wonder if they wanted it? For well-rotted hay, read leafmould. OK, it
is probably not as good as broad-leaved plants' leafmould because it
doesn't contain a lot of the waste chemicals shed leaves do, but as a
conditioner it would have helped your soil structure.

Post by doug.
A farmer friend I was visiting
was making up a silo load and he was putting very dilute treacle into
it. I don't know whether it was for to add a bit of taste or to assist
the composting.

If the contents of the silo were for feeding cattle, it was to balance
the nutrients. I'm going to be good from now onwards - I don't want to
be reincarnated as a cow.....

+++++++++++++++
I don't want to lower the tone of the conversation Rusty, but am
reminded of the the old, old answer to the question, "why do cows always
look so gloomy?"
Doug.
++++++++++++++

[Jaques d'Alltrades]

Post by doug.
I don't want to lower the tone of the conversation Rusty, but am
reminded of the the old, old answer to the question, "why do cows always
look so gloomy?"

Coo! Someone with a concience!

Have you got any seeds to spare?

[Rusty Hinge]

Post by Nick Maclaren
If it was on the surface, yes. But there is a lot of salt underneath
Cheshire, that has not leached in millions of years. I could very
easily believe that many such deposits are mixtures of sand and salt,
and that there are places where salty sand is an accessible mineral
(and not near a current seashore).

I'll have to go salt prospecting next time I go to Wortham Ling. (About
ten miles away) According to my uncle, who had (probably) the oldest
house in Suffolk on the Ling, that was shore in Roman times, navigable
to there by longboats in the Viking era, though now the nearby River
Waveney isn't tidal to anywhere near there.

[Victoria Clare]

Post by Simon Avery
Hello Nick
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?

Some sand comes straight out of the sea.

In Barnstaple there is (or was for a long time) a sand dredger that went
out into the estuary at lowish tide, somehow gobbled up a sandbank, then
waited for the rising tide to float it off and back up the estuary to
unload.

Dunno what they do with the sand, but I assume they had to wash it,
whatever. (There always seems to be plenty of sand left...)

Victoria

[doug.]

Post by Simon Avery
Hello Nick
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.
--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For what it's worth, - I live near northside Morecambe bay and near my
house and three-quarters of a miles from the beach was a massive
sand-hill and the sand was used for building most of my town for
hundreds, - probably thousands of years. It is now gone, being worked
out.
I would assume that during all those many years the rains would have
filtered the salt down to the water table.
Are their any experts on the thread to give an opinion?.

[martin]

Post by doug.

Post by Simon Avery
Hello Nick
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.
--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For what it's worth, - I live near northside Morecambe bay and near my
house and three-quarters of a miles from the beach was a massive
sand-hill and the sand was used for building most of my town for
hundreds, - probably thousands of years. It is now gone, being worked
out.
I would assume that during all those many years the rains would have
filtered the salt down to the water table.
Are their any experts on the thread to give an opinion?.

Most of the drinking water in the west of the Netherlands is pumped
from under the coastal sand dunes. It is fresh, not salt water.

[doug.]

Post by martin

Post by doug.

Post by Simon Avery
Hello Nick
NM> As Cormaic pointed out, builders' sand has not had salt in
NM> it for many decades - at least not if bought from an even
NM> half-respectable person.
They don't wash it at the quarry, and that's where I get mine from.
I'm a bit hazy about the geology side - I guess sand comes from both
sea and river sources, so if former it would surely have traces of
salt in it?
But I must admit, I've never licked it so can't say.
--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For what it's worth, - I live near northside Morecambe bay and near my
house and three-quarters of a miles from the beach was a massive
sand-hill and the sand was used for building most of my town for
hundreds, - probably thousands of years. It is now gone, being worked
out.
I would assume that during all those many years the rains would have
filtered the salt down to the water table.
Are their any experts on the thread to give an opinion?.

Most of the drinking water in the west of the Netherlands is pumped
from under the coastal sand dunes. It is fresh, not salt water.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Most interesting and informative. Thank you.

[Franz Heymann]

Post by Andy Hunt
I have some builders' sand hanging around in my yard, and I was going to use
it for drainage in some new pots I've bought today.
My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand contains lots
of chemicals which won't do plants any good, because it is building sand.
The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years - does anyone
know if my dad's correct about this, and if so, whether the rain would have
washed the sand clean by now?
Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an inch-thick layer of
drainage material at the bottom of each pot, would it be OK?
Thanks in anticipation!

To the best of my knowledge, builders' sand is clean, well washed sand. It
should be quite safe to use it in any gardening application requiring sand.
However, even if it is safe to use, it does not drain quite as fast as a
sharp sand

Franz

[green earth]

Post by Andy Hunt
I have some builders' sand hanging around in my yard, and I was going to use
it for drainage in some new pots I've bought today.
My dad however has advised me not to, he says that this sand contains lots
of chemicals which won't do plants any good, because it is building sand.
The sand has been outside in the rain for at least 3 years - does anyone
know if my dad's correct about this, and if so, whether the rain would have
washed the sand clean by now?
Even if it is full of chemicals, if I just use it for an inch-thick layer of
drainage material at the bottom of each pot, would it be OK?
Thanks in anticipation!
Andrew

It is much better to use horticultural grit as it will not contain huge amounts
of lime. I don't think builders sand contains chemicals but you should be aware
of the ph (acidity) level of the sand. Some plants tolerate high lime level
whereas others will not.

[Rusty Hinge]

Post by green earth
It is much better to use horticultural grit as it will not contain huge amounts
of lime. I don't think builders sand contains chemicals but you should be aware
of the ph (acidity) level of the sand. Some plants tolerate high lime level
whereas others will not.

Most builders' sand is silica, and should have no pH value at all as it
is to all intents and purposes, insoluble.

I suppose there is a possibility of some sand from local non-commercial
sources containing limestone, and/or oxides of iron.

Some beach sands can't be relied on either: for instance, there is a
beach on Skye which is made up almost entirely of coral fragments.

Generally though, you can be pretty sure that sharp sand can be added to
any (rooting) medium without it altering the pH.