Another sickly ceanothus

[niteowl]

I have a very sickly ceanothus that has brown leaves (those that ar
left) and is very straggly. It was pruned lightly last year and cam
good but having read some of the other posts on this subject I think i
may be just too cold for it here (Aberdeenshire

--
niteowl

[Nick Maclaren]

I have a very sickly ceanothus that has brown leaves (those that are
left) and is very straggly. It was pruned lightly last year and came
good but having read some of the other posts on this subject I think it
may be just too cold for it here (Aberdeenshire)

Quite likely. I would give it a month or two, to see if it picks
up, and scrap it if not. I got rid of mine on the grounds that it
had got out of hand, but it was in a sun trap in Cambridgeshire.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Sue Begg]

I have a very sickly ceanothus that has brown leaves (those that are
left) and is very straggly. It was pruned lightly last year and came
good but having read some of the other posts on this subject I think it
may be just too cold for it here (Aberdeenshire)

Mine also in Aberdeenshire seems to have deceased. A lot of things that
survived the last couple of years in Aberdeen city have not survived the
winter out here in the wilds of New Deer. I think the cold wind is a
major factor because a ground hugging Ceanothus has stayed green. Even
Lavatera and Hebe have died here.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Sue Begg

I have a very sickly ceanothus that has brown leaves (those that are
left) and is very straggly. It was pruned lightly last year and came
good but having read some of the other posts on this subject I
think it may be just too cold for it here (Aberdeenshire)

Mine also in Aberdeenshire seems to have deceased. A lot of things
that survived the last couple of years in Aberdeen city have not
survived the winter out here in the wilds of New Deer. I think the
cold wind is a major factor because a ground hugging Ceanothus has
stayed green. Even Lavatera and Hebe have died here.

They certainly won't stand cold winds; and as niteowl mentions that
they're straggly, I wonder if shade may be a problem. I find they can
die back in shade from other shrubs nearby after a few seasons: when
the neighbours were smaller, the ceanothus had enough light, but
conditions changed as the others grew. I think others mentioned here
that once a limb of ceanothus starts dying back it's likely to go all
the way.

[Magwitch]

Post by Nick Maclaren

I have a very sickly ceanothus that has brown leaves (those that are
left) and is very straggly. It was pruned lightly last year and came
good but having read some of the other posts on this subject I think it
may be just too cold for it here (Aberdeenshire)

Quite likely. I would give it a month or two, to see if it picks
up, and scrap it if not. I got rid of mine on the grounds that it
had got out of hand, but it was in a sun trap in Cambridgeshire.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I want to move a 4-year-old one planted in a panic to get *anything* in a
bed trashed by builders because I'm devoting the bed to herbs (physic and
edible). Should I wait until it's flowered or a bit longer and move it in
winter? It's about 1.3 m all round.

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <BE9680AF.17963%***@b.c>, Magwitch <***@b.c> writes:
|>
|> I want to move a 4-year-old one planted in a panic to get *anything* in a
|> bed trashed by builders because I'm devoting the bed to herbs (physic and
|> edible). Should I wait until it's flowered or a bit longer and move it in
|> winter? It's about 1.3 m all round.

It will probably die anyway. They are as hard to transplant as
brooms. Start with a new one.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Lee and Kath]

Post by Nick Maclaren
|>
|> I want to move a 4-year-old one planted in a panic to get *anything* in a
|> bed trashed by builders because I'm devoting the bed to herbs (physic and
|> edible). Should I wait until it's flowered or a bit longer and move it in
|> winter? It's about 1.3 m all round.
It will probably die anyway. They are as hard to transplant as
brooms. Start with a new one.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

If some plants are notoriously bad to transplant and die at the first sniff of being moved, how come
they are OK to buy as pot plants?

How do we ever manage to buy these ?

(just a puzzling thought)

Kath

[Sacha]

Post by Lee and Kath

Post by Nick Maclaren
|>
|> I want to move a 4-year-old one planted in a panic to get *anything* in a
|> bed trashed by builders because I'm devoting the bed to herbs (physic and
|> edible). Should I wait until it's flowered or a bit longer and move it in
|> winter? It's about 1.3 m all round.
It will probably die anyway. They are as hard to transplant as
brooms. Start with a new one.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

If some plants are notoriously bad to transplant and die at the first sniff of
being moved, how come
they are OK to buy as pot plants?
How do we ever manage to buy these ?

When you buy them as potted up plants you're taking their planting
environment with them. It's a sort of self-contained unit which suffers
minimal root disturbance because it's contained in a small area. When you
uproot something well-established in the garden and move it, the roots are
probably bigger and have spread further and therefore the disturbance is
greater. If you look at the roots in a potted up plant, they're a neat,
tidy bundle, not a sprawling mass over and down several feet.
This is why, when people want to move large shrubs or tricky shrubs, they're
advised to take a (comparatively) huge amount of soil around the root with
it. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. People do buy mature
trees with enormous root balls, for thousands of pounds, and transplant them
- but the risk is theirs!

[Janet Baraclough]

Post by Lee and Kath

Post by Nick Maclaren
|>
|> I want to move a 4-year-old one planted in a panic to get
*anything* in a
|> bed trashed by builders because I'm devoting the bed to herbs (physic and
|> edible). Should I wait until it's flowered or a bit longer and move it in
|> winter? It's about 1.3 m all round.
It will probably die anyway. They are as hard to transplant as
brooms. Start with a new one.

If some plants are notoriously bad to transplant and die at the first
sniff of being moved, how come
they are OK to buy as pot plants?
How do we ever manage to buy these ?

Plants have very different root structures. Azaleas for example have
a dense shallow mass of fine fibrous roots which is easy to dig up more
or less intact, losing very little soil. So even large old azaleas are
very tolerant of being dug up and moved. Other plants, like brooms,
have deep long smooth carrot-like roots called a tap root. It's almost
impossible to dig out and move a well-estabished deep tap root without
damaging it, and if you do, the soil is far more likely to drop off. So
it's very hard to move brooms once they've rooted down deeply into the
open garden.

Potgrown plants avoid that stress. If it was propagated and grown in a
pot, a plant's entire root system is contained intact within the soil of
the pot, and the soil is formed into a stable shape by the pot, same as
a sand pie. You can gently slide out the roots and soil unbroken,
and replant with minimum disturbance or damage.


Janet.

[Nick Maclaren]

Post by Lee and Kath
If some plants are notoriously bad to transplant and die at the first sniff of being moved, how come
they are OK to buy as pot plants?

The other postings answered most of this, and I have little to add.
There is a secondary aspect that is worth taking note of.

Some plants are happy in pots when very small, but don't do well if
left too long in pots. Such plants are better bought small - i.e.
a large plant isn't worth more, but less (whatever is charged for it)!

I have planted such things too late, and they don't take off. When
I have dug them up later, I have found that their main roots were
still in the shape of the pot and they hadn't established a wide-
ranging root system.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Dave]

Post by Magwitch

Post by Nick Maclaren

I have a very sickly ceanothus that has brown leaves (those that are
left) and is very straggly. It was pruned lightly last year and came
good but having read some of the other posts on this subject I think it
may be just too cold for it here (Aberdeenshire)

Quite likely. I would give it a month or two, to see if it picks
up, and scrap it if not. I got rid of mine on the grounds that it
had got out of hand, but it was in a sun trap in Cambridgeshire.

I want to move a 4-year-old one planted in a panic to get *anything* in a
bed trashed by builders because I'm devoting the bed to herbs (physic and
edible). Should I wait until it's flowered or a bit longer and move it in
winter? It's about 1.3 m all round.

I had a small one that had been run over by builders, and eventually
took pity on it, dug it up, pruned the broken branches and also some
roots, and chucked it in a bucket of water around this time of year.
Three days later I planted it more in hope than expectation and now some
5 or 6 years on its a huge low mound about 10ft across, three feet high!

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <47KPRbA5zgcCFw2$@crown-cottage.demon.co.uk>,
Dave <David@||||.com> writes:
|> Magwitch <***@b.c> writes
|> >I want to move a 4-year-old one planted in a panic to get *anything* in a
|> >bed trashed by builders because I'm devoting the bed to herbs (physic and
|> >edible). Should I wait until it's flowered or a bit longer and move it in
|> >winter? It's about 1.3 m all round.
|> >
|> I had a small one that had been run over by builders, and eventually
|> took pity on it, dug it up, pruned the broken branches and also some
|> roots, and chucked it in a bucket of water around this time of year.
|> Three days later I planted it more in hope than expectation and now some
|> 5 or 6 years on its a huge low mound about 10ft across, three feet high!

Plants like brooms and ceanothus move better when small, and my
limited experience is that older ones sometimes move and sometimes
don't. I have rarely had them suffer a serious check and then
recover, the way that more 'movable' plants do; mine have tended
to either drop dead or carry on growing.

It's generally worth a go if the plant is going to be got rid of
otherwise.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Rodger Whitlock]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:16:48 +0000, niteowl

I have a very sickly ceanothus that has brown leaves (those that are
left) and is very straggly. It was pruned lightly last year and came
good but having read some of the other posts on this subject I think it
may be just too cold for it here (Aberdeenshire)

The really good ceanothus species are Californian and generally are
native to fairly mild Mediterranean climates: in the sense of lots of
winter rainfall and a long, sunny, dry summer.

Admittedly I'm basing this remark on a possibly faulty stereotype of
Scottish weather, but I can hardly imagine a climate less congenial to
ceanothus, what with clouds, chill, and rain.

Warmth and sun and drought: that's what they want, though they
probably do better with some moisture down deep.

[Sacha]

Post by Rodger Whitlock
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:16:48 +0000, niteowl

I have a very sickly ceanothus that has brown leaves (those that are
left) and is very straggly. It was pruned lightly last year and came
good but having read some of the other posts on this subject I think it
may be just too cold for it here (Aberdeenshire)

The really good ceanothus species are Californian and generally are
native to fairly mild Mediterranean climates: in the sense of lots of
winter rainfall and a long, sunny, dry summer.
Admittedly I'm basing this remark on a possibly faulty stereotype of
Scottish weather, but I can hardly imagine a climate less congenial to
ceanothus, what with clouds, chill, and rain.
Warmth and sun and drought: that's what they want, though they
probably do better with some moisture down deep.

They do very well in the bits of this country I've lived in though those are
admittedly southish and warmish. But all bits are wettish. ;-) My own
experience of Ceanothus is growing them in the Channel Islands and here in
the south west of England where they grow fast and well. I know their
'nickname' is Californian Lilac but they seem to me to have adapted pretty
well to NON long sunny, dry summers! We sell a lot of them - very popular
plants round here.

[Janet Baraclough]

Post by Rodger Whitlock
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:16:48 +0000, niteowl

I have a very sickly ceanothus that has brown leaves (those that are
left) and is very straggly. It was pruned lightly last year and came
good but having read some of the other posts on this subject I think it
may be just too cold for it here (Aberdeenshire)

The really good ceanothus species are Californian and generally are
native to fairly mild Mediterranean climates: in the sense of lots of
winter rainfall and a long, sunny, dry summer.
Admittedly I'm basing this remark on a possibly faulty stereotype of
Scottish weather, but I can hardly imagine a climate less congenial to
ceanothus, what with clouds, chill, and rain.
Warmth and sun and drought: that's what they want, though they
probably do better with some moisture down deep.

Your stereotype of Scottish weather's effect on gardening is indeed at
fault (or else, your stereotype of meditterranean climate ). Ceanothus,
and many other med plants, thrive in many parts of Scotland including
the NE.

North east scotland (where Aberdeenshire is) has the driest climate,
least cloud and most sunshine of any part of Scotland. Summer
temperatures are cool, but dry and sunny and the daylight hours are very
long. It's relatively low-lying, close to the warming influence of the
sea water mass. Much of the meditteranean also has very cold winters
just a few miles inland, and perishing winds: many of its plants are
adapted to drying wind and salt, conditions found in coastal
Aberdenshire. So, although swimming off the north east coast is utterly
unlike swimming in the med, there are enough similarities of climate on
land to support plants like ceanothus. I find NE nurseries a good source
of "mild coastal " plants, and ceanothus can certainly thrive there
(lovely examples in Crathes).

There can be a very icy east wind, but many Aberdeenshire gardens are
walled or hedged, for shelter. My guess is, the OP's ceanothus has
been too exposed to that cold wind.

The west coast of Scotland, from the south to even further north than
Aberdeen on the east, is warmed even more by the gulf stream. Much of
the Scottish west coast is almost frost-free, one of the mildest
climates in Britain with very long daylight hours in summer. Although
rainfall is high, it also leaches nutrition (good for med plants) and
rocky or sandy coastal soils can provide suitably good drainage. Many
coastal plants from hotter climates thrive in the sub-tropical gardens
all down Scotland's west coast.


Janet (Arran, west Scotland).