Propagating Echium Pinninana from seed

[echinosum]

E. Pinninana is more tender than I would normally bother with in m
garden 400ft up on the windy Chiltern plateau, especially on th
evidence of a green-fingered friend on the Somerset Levels losing hi
to frost (he bought the plants in Scilly). But my brother put them ou
in his garden in a small town in Leicestershire, where the daffs com
out about 2 or 3 weeks later than Severnside Somerset. The
overwintered and flowered last summer to everyone's amazement, n
special treatment or precautions used, though admittedly it was
rather sheltered village-centre location. I've collected some seed
from his plants, in the hope that these have unusually hardy genes.

So now what do I do with the seeds

--
echinosum

[Rupert]

E. Pinninana is more tender than I would normally bother with in my
garden 400ft up on the windy Chiltern plateau, especially on the
evidence of a green-fingered friend on the Somerset Levels losing his
to frost (he bought the plants in Scilly). But my brother put them out
in his garden in a small town in Leicestershire, where the daffs come
out about 2 or 3 weeks later than Severnside Somerset. They
overwintered and flowered last summer to everyone's amazement, no
special treatment or precautions used, though admittedly it was a
rather sheltered village-centre location. I've collected some seeds
from his plants, in the hope that these have unusually hardy genes.
So now what do I do with the seeds?
--
echinosum

How tall did it grow?
I have seen this grown in a sheltered spot at a Nursery in Yorkshire .
I was told that winter wet is the enemy and not the cold -so needs good
drainage. I gave up a few years ago.
Just sow the seeds now under glass.

[echinosum]

Post by Rupert
How tall did it grow?
I have seen this grown in a sheltered spot at a Nursery in Yorkshire .
I was told that winter wet is the enemy and not the cold -so need
good
drainage. I gave up a few years ago.
Just sow the seeds now under glass.

Thank you for all your advice. I have planted what I had under glass.
I didn't have enough to save some for later. I just hope there wa
actually some viable seed there.

My brother's near Leicester got to about 2.5m, also a smaller one. H
has now moved house, so I can't ask for any self-sown seedlings.

I have a very light sandy pebbly top-soil, so perhaps I shall be lucky
if I actually get some plants

--
echinosum

[echinosum]

Post by echinosum
Thank you for all your advice. I have planted what I had under glass.
didn't have enough to save some for later. I just hope there wa
actually some viable seed there.> > >

I how have about a hundred little seedlings, giving me plenty o
opportunity for experimentation

--
echinosum

[La Puce]

So now what do I do with the seeds?

Echium piniana are biennial flowers. If I were you, I'd sow some now,
and again would sow more in late summer (in tray, lightly covered).
They will put only leaves on this year, but next year will bloom, make
seeds, and you can sow more.

[Dave Poole]

Post by La Puce

So now what do I do with the seeds?

Echium piniana are biennial flowers. If I were you, I'd sow some now,
and again would sow more in late summer (in tray, lightly covered).
They will put only leaves on this year, but next year will bloom, make
seeds, and you can sow more.

In the UK Echium pininana is monocarpic (dies after flowering) and not
biennial. It may take 2 or even 3 summers to grow to flowering size
and only very rarely makes enough growth 2 seasons to satisfy the
criteria of being biennial. If sown now and provided the plants are
not killed by cold winter wet, flowers can be expected during May/June
2008 at the earliest.

The seeds should be sown thinly on the surface of gritty compost and
maintained at around 15 - 18C. Seedlings are transplanted as soon as
large enough to handle into 8cm. pots containing a free-draining
compost and kept lightly moist and in full light. They should be
potted-on to 25cms diameter pots when the roots have filled their
containers and gradually hardened off to stand out of doors by mid
May. The young plants can then be planted out in a sharply drained
site in full sun. In regions where temperatures are likely to exceed
minus 4-6C. some protection from winter wet will be necessary.


Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

[Sacha]

Post by Dave Poole

Post by La Puce

So now what do I do with the seeds?

Echium piniana are biennial flowers. If I were you, I'd sow some now,
and again would sow more in late summer (in tray, lightly covered).
They will put only leaves on this year, but next year will bloom, make
seeds, and you can sow more.

In the UK Echium pininana is monocarpic (dies after flowering) and not
biennial. It may take 2 or even 3 summers to grow to flowering size
and only very rarely makes enough growth 2 seasons to satisfy the
criteria of being biennial. If sown now and provided the plants are
not killed by cold winter wet, flowers can be expected during May/June
2008 at the earliest.

I found mine seeded themselves around in Jersey but we have little luck with
them here, even in our comparatively mild climate. One flowered last year,
so I'm waiting to see if it produced any viable seedlings nearby. There
hasn't been the problem of wetness so much this year but of course, it has
been very cold. I am always terribly envious of the people of Tresco when
we go there and see the darn things growing wild!
In fact, thinking about it, I'm tempted to put some into 'interesting' pots
and see what happens if we just grow them that way.
<snip>

[Chris Hogg]

On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 13:19:56 +0000, Sacha

Post by Sacha

Post by Dave Poole

Post by La Puce

So now what do I do with the seeds?

Echium piniana are biennial flowers. If I were you, I'd sow some now,
and again would sow more in late summer (in tray, lightly covered).
They will put only leaves on this year, but next year will bloom, make
seeds, and you can sow more.

In the UK Echium pininana is monocarpic (dies after flowering) and not
biennial. It may take 2 or even 3 summers to grow to flowering size
and only very rarely makes enough growth 2 seasons to satisfy the
criteria of being biennial. If sown now and provided the plants are
not killed by cold winter wet, flowers can be expected during May/June
2008 at the earliest.

I found mine seeded themselves around in Jersey but we have little luck with
them here, even in our comparatively mild climate. One flowered last year,
so I'm waiting to see if it produced any viable seedlings nearby. There
hasn't been the problem of wetness so much this year but of course, it has
been very cold. I am always terribly envious of the people of Tresco when
we go there and see the darn things growing wild!
In fact, thinking about it, I'm tempted to put some into 'interesting' pots
and see what happens if we just grow them that way.
<snip>

They grow wild in west Cornwall too. A few years ago I saw a 'copse'
of them, like triffids, on some uncultivated semi-moorland near St.
Ives. It looked as if someone had dumped some garden rubbish there,
including I suspect a few dead flower stems of EP, and it had
scattered its seeds around which then germinated freely!

[Sacha]

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 13:19:56 +0000, Sacha
<snip>

Post by Sacha
I found mine seeded themselves around in Jersey but we have little luck with
them here, even in our comparatively mild climate. One flowered last year,
so I'm waiting to see if it produced any viable seedlings nearby. There
hasn't been the problem of wetness so much this year but of course, it has
been very cold. I am always terribly envious of the people of Tresco when
we go there and see the darn things growing wild!
In fact, thinking about it, I'm tempted to put some into 'interesting' pots
and see what happens if we just grow them that way.
<snip>

They grow wild in west Cornwall too. A few years ago I saw a 'copse'
of them, like triffids, on some uncultivated semi-moorland near St.
Ives. It looked as if someone had dumped some garden rubbish there,
including I suspect a few dead flower stems of EP, and it had
scattered its seeds around which then germinated freely!

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. My Jersey ones came from three that
grew to at least 12 feet and were a sort of high rise restaurant for every
bee in Jersey, it seemed to me. They were teeming with them, including my
own bees. They were then were hit by an unusually hard winter for Jersey,
or so I thought. I was convinced they were nuked. Next spring there were
literally hundreds of seedlings around the area in which they were planted -
hundreds. I was begging people to come and take them away.
I realise now how much I took for granted when I was gardening there!

[Dave Poole]

Post by Sacha
I found mine seeded themselves around in Jersey but we have little luck with
them here, even in our comparatively mild climate.

Yes, I think you may be a tad too far inland there, although you might
find a seedling survive in a sheltered dry spot close to the house
wall. Echiums are almost always better allowed to find their own
comfort zones when they are being grown in borderline situations. If
you put one very close to the south wall, protect it, but otherwise
let it do its stuff, you might find that any progeny will find their
own little microclimates. Of course, sod's law will ensure that the
only suitable spot will be smack-bang in front of the sitting room
window, denying you all a view of the garden :-|

Post by Sacha
One flowered last year,
so I'm waiting to see if it produced any viable seedlings nearby. There
hasn't been the problem of wetness so much this year but of course, it has
been very cold. I am always terribly envious of the people of Tresco when
we go there and see the darn things growing wild!

They seed themselves about freely here as do the more deeply coloured
E. wildpretii. I always find E. pininana something of a
disappointment when it finally flowers. The huge towers of foliage
and flower buds look so promising, but the colour impact of those tiny
pale mauve flowers when they open never quite lives up to expectation
for me. E. wildpretii with its dark, purplish mauve flowers is rather
better in this respect, but it is less hardy for those living inland
and doesn't grow so tall. There will almost certainly be hybrids of
the two species over the next few years, which might fit the bill. If
its any consolation, the humidity in this garden doesn't allow either
species to grow. It's great for bananas and other lush, leafy things,
but not for plants that prefer similar dry, airy locations.

Post by Sacha
In fact, thinking about it, I'm tempted to put some into 'interesting' pots
and see what happens if we just grow them that way.

In very big tree pots yes - filled with sandy loam. A 50/50 mix of
your local red soil and sharp sand will do the trick - maybe with a
light sprinkling of osmocote pellets to give the plants a boost early
on. You won't get 5m. high spikes, but they'll put on a decent show
to 2.8m. high or maybe more. They would look spectacular in the big
double and you'll get them to flower in Feb/early March as opposed to
April/early May.


Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

[Janet Baraclough]

Post by Dave Poole

Post by Sacha
I found mine seeded themselves around in Jersey but we have little luck with
them here, even in our comparatively mild climate.

They seed themselves about freely here as do the more deeply coloured
E. wildpretii.

E.pininana seed like weeds in a few sheltered spots here on Arran. In
Brodick castle, it seeds freely into sunny starved gravel paths, but
also (around the compost heaps) into wet rich deeply shaded loam under
trees.

I transplanted some to my garden where they grew like stink in year
one and died like doornails in their first winter, probably my bad
choice of location. Next time I see a big batch of seedlings I'll try
them in other places. Although the flowers aren't bright I like the
exotic shape they make, giant stems rearing up like giraffe necks.

OTOH, some other echium (seed brought ftom Madeira in nameless
envelope) has already survived two winters planted out in my garden
(drier and sunnier spot), and look as if they might flower this year.
It's definitely not pininana though.

Janet. (Isle of Arran)

[Sacha]

Post by Janet Baraclough

Post by Dave Poole

Post by Sacha
I found mine seeded themselves around in Jersey but we have little luck with
them here, even in our comparatively mild climate.

They seed themselves about freely here as do the more deeply coloured
E. wildpretii.

E.pininana seed like weeds in a few sheltered spots here on Arran. In
Brodick castle, it seeds freely into sunny starved gravel paths, but
also (around the compost heaps) into wet rich deeply shaded loam under
trees.
I transplanted some to my garden where they grew like stink in year
one and died like doornails in their first winter, probably my bad
choice of location. Next time I see a big batch of seedlings I'll try
them in other places. Although the flowers aren't bright I like the
exotic shape they make, giant stems rearing up like giraffe necks.
OTOH, some other echium (seed brought ftom Madeira in nameless
envelope) has already survived two winters planted out in my garden
(drier and sunnier spot), and look as if they might flower this year.
It's definitely not pininana though.

Try a Google image search on E. wildpretii that David mentions and also E.
fastuosum. The latter is a lovely plant, holding its flowers rather like a
candelabra. Here's one called Pride of Madeira! http://tinyurl.com/acug3
And there's a good pic of E. wildpretii on this site:
http://www.justplants.co.uk/Main%20Page7.htm

[Janet Baraclough]

Post by Sacha

Post by Janet Baraclough
OTOH, some other echium (seed brought ftom Madeira in nameless
envelope) has already survived two winters planted out in my garden
(drier and sunnier spot), and look as if they might flower this year.
It's definitely not pininana though.

Try a Google image search on E. wildpretii that David mentions and also E.
fastuosum. The latter is a lovely plant, holding its flowers rather like a
candelabra. Here's one called Pride of Madeira! http://tinyurl.com/acug3
http://www.justplants.co.uk/Main%20Page7.htm

I'm hoping it's Po M, the foliage looks similar, but won't be able to
identify by flower, er, until they flower :-) Thanks for that
justplants link btw..I've bookmarked it for further exploration later.

Janet

[Sacha]

Post by Janet Baraclough

Post by Sacha

Post by Janet Baraclough
OTOH, some other echium (seed brought ftom Madeira in nameless
envelope) has already survived two winters planted out in my garden
(drier and sunnier spot), and look as if they might flower this year.
It's definitely not pininana though.

Try a Google image search on E. wildpretii that David mentions and also E.
fastuosum. The latter is a lovely plant, holding its flowers rather like a
candelabra. Here's one called Pride of Madeira! http://tinyurl.com/acug3
http://www.justplants.co.uk/Main%20Page7.htm

I'm hoping it's Po M, the foliage looks similar, but won't be able to
identify by flower, er, until they flower :-) Thanks for that
justplants link btw..I've bookmarked it for further exploration later.

Me, too. I like the look of that site.

[Sue]

<snip>

Post by Janet Baraclough

Post by Sacha
Here's one called Pride of Madeira! http://tinyurl.com/acug3
http://www.justplants.co.uk/Main%20Page7.htm

I'm hoping it's Po M, the foliage looks similar, but won't be able
to identify by flower, er, until they flower :-) Thanks for that
justplants link btw..I've bookmarked it for further exploration later.

Oh my word, that's a gorgeous plant!

I've been thinking I must make space for some of the rather humbler
native Echium vulgare, 'Viper's Bugloss', which grows wild around here
but is still lovely enough imo to deserve garden space. E. russicum that
I planted last year appears to have survived the winter, so I'm hoping
to see that flower this summer, but I never imagined those wonderful
tall varieties could be grown in E Anglia. It seems Geoff Stebbings is
gardening not all that far from Norfolk though. What an inspiration. :)

[Sacha]

On 6/2/06 20:55, in article
43e7b7e9$0$1474$***@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net, "Sue"
<***@allegedly.spamless.plus.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Sue
It seems Geoff Stebbings is
gardening not all that far from Norfolk though. What an inspiration. :)

He's in Cambridgeshire and I admit that surprised and interested me.
They're wonderful plants - well worth a try, at least. I do like that white
one. But he's right about skin irritation - be very wary of that.

[Sacha]

Post by Dave Poole

Post by Sacha
I found mine seeded themselves around in Jersey but we have little luck with
them here, even in our comparatively mild climate.

Yes, I think you may be a tad too far inland there, although you might
find a seedling survive in a sheltered dry spot close to the house
wall.

Even I sometimes forget how close we are to Dartmoor! And this morning, for
instance, the lawns were very white, and even though the sun is shining
there is no sign of ice melting on the ponds yet. The one we managed to get
to flower last year was in the tea room garden so very sheltered by hedge,
tea room conservatory and other plants covering it. I hope we might be
lucky.

Post by Dave Poole
Echiums are almost always better allowed to find their own
comfort zones when they are being grown in borderline situations. If
you put one very close to the south wall, protect it, but otherwise
let it do its stuff, you might find that any progeny will find their
own little microclimates. Of course, sod's law will ensure that the
only suitable spot will be smack-bang in front of the sitting room
window, denying you all a view of the garden :-|

Well, we'll just have to dodge it, then; ;-) Ray has finally hacked out the
huge tree peony in front of the dining room so that we can see out of the
window, so perhaps we could try an Echium to one side of that! In fact a
lot of slashing and burning has gone on since you were last here.

Post by Dave Poole

Post by Sacha
One flowered last year,
so I'm waiting to see if it produced any viable seedlings nearby. There
hasn't been the problem of wetness so much this year but of course, it has
been very cold. I am always terribly envious of the people of Tresco when
we go there and see the darn things growing wild!

They seed themselves about freely here as do the more deeply coloured
E. wildpretii. I always find E. pininana something of a
disappointment when it finally flowers. The huge towers of foliage
and flower buds look so promising, but the colour impact of those tiny
pale mauve flowers when they open never quite lives up to expectation
for me. E. wildpretii with its dark, purplish mauve flowers is rather
better in this respect, but it is less hardy for those living inland
and doesn't grow so tall. There will almost certainly be hybrids of
the two species over the next few years, which might fit the bill. If
its any consolation, the humidity in this garden doesn't allow either
species to grow. It's great for bananas and other lush, leafy things,
but not for plants that prefer similar dry, airy locations.

We got some E. wildpretii from Mike Nelhams in Tresco so it will be worth
giving it a go and we also took seed from an E. fastuosum growing just
outside one of the cottage gardens on a sandy path in direct blast from the
sea. I think this is my favourite kind of Echium and this particular one
was of the most enchanting deep blue. I'd love to get that going in a pot,
too, so will have to have a chat with Ray about space!

Post by Dave Poole

Post by Sacha
In fact, thinking about it, I'm tempted to put some into 'interesting' pots
and see what happens if we just grow them that way.

In very big tree pots yes - filled with sandy loam. A 50/50 mix of
your local red soil and sharp sand will do the trick - maybe with a
light sprinkling of osmocote pellets to give the plants a boost early
on. You won't get 5m. high spikes, but they'll put on a decent show
to 2.8m. high or maybe more. They would look spectacular in the big
double and you'll get them to flower in Feb/early March as opposed to
April/early May.

Thanks and good idea. Hi ho Hi ho....... ;-)
BTW, did you get an email from me about Guy? I'm not sure if I have your
address correctly. Would you mind emailing me to let me know.

[Rupert]

.

Post by Dave Poole

Post by Sacha
In fact, thinking about it, I'm tempted to put some into 'interesting' pots
and see what happens if we just grow them that way.

In very big tree pots yes - filled with sandy loam. A 50/50 mix of
your local red soil and sharp sand will do the trick - maybe with a
light sprinkling of osmocote pellets to give the plants a boost early
on. You won't get 5m. high spikes, but they'll put on a decent show
to 2.8m. high or maybe more. They would look spectacular in the big
double and you'll get them to flower in Feb/early March as opposed to
April/early May.
Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

Your info about pots and Sachas links to those stunning pictures makes me
want to have another go at them. I managed to get one to its second year but
then it gave up and so did I.
A tree pot of what size? I assume the bigger the better but what's the
minimum size you recommend?

[Dave Poole]

Post by Rupert
Your info about pots and Sachas links to those stunning pictures makes me
want to have another go at them. I managed to get one to its second year but
then it gave up and so did I.

With these tender Echiums, the danger isn't so much the severity of
the frost (within reason), but the length of time that it persists.
Minus 4C by night with nothing rising above 0C by day for several days
does far more damage than a minus 6 or 7C 'hit' followed by a rapid
rise to 6 - 10C by day. If it looks as though you are in for a
continuously frosty spell, it is better to haul the plants under
cover.

Post by Rupert
A tree pot of what size? I assume the bigger the better but what's the
minimum size you recommend?

60cms deep and the same in diameter or more is about right and yes,
the bigger the better. I've seen very good plants grown in cut-down,
plastic dustbins and you might find those a more economical
proposition. The lowest quarter should be filled with drainage
material and plenty of drainage holes need to be drilled - the more
the merrier.

The chappy who grows them in half dustbins trundles them about on a
sack truck - shifting them into his car port in very cold weather and
out again when it is mild. There's dedication for you! In winter,
the plants are only watered when the leaves are wilting and the
plants aren't fed except when first potted. Then they get a small
amount of slow release pellets (Osmocote) and that's it.

If you are opting for pot growing and can provide some shelter in
winter, I would certainly opt for Echium wildpretii. It is not as
triffid-like as pininana and is far easier to manage. You might also
try Echium webbii as well. It is shrubby in the same way as E.
candicans (fastuosum), but is somewhat more richly coloured and a more
compact grower.

HTH.

Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

[Rupert]

Post by Dave Poole

Post by Rupert
Your info about pots and Sachas links to those stunning pictures makes me
want to have another go at them. I managed to get one to its second year but
then it gave up and so did I.

With these tender Echiums, the danger isn't so much the severity of
the frost (within reason), but the length of time that it persists.
Minus 4C by night with nothing rising above 0C by day for several days
does far more damage than a minus 6 or 7C 'hit' followed by a rapid
rise to 6 - 10C by day. If it looks as though you are in for a
continuously frosty spell, it is better to haul the plants under
cover.

Post by Rupert
A tree pot of what size? I assume the bigger the better but what's the
minimum size you recommend?

60cms deep and the same in diameter or more is about right and yes,
the bigger the better. I've seen very good plants grown in cut-down,
plastic dustbins and you might find those a more economical
proposition. The lowest quarter should be filled with drainage
material and plenty of drainage holes need to be drilled - the more
the merrier.
The chappy who grows them in half dustbins trundles them about on a
sack truck - shifting them into his car port in very cold weather and
out again when it is mild. There's dedication for you! In winter,
the plants are only watered when the leaves are wilting and the
plants aren't fed except when first potted. Then they get a small
amount of slow release pellets (Osmocote) and that's it.
If you are opting for pot growing and can provide some shelter in
winter, I would certainly opt for Echium wildpretii. It is not as
triffid-like as pininana and is far easier to manage. You might also
try Echium webbii as well. It is shrubby in the same way as E.
candicans (fastuosum), but is somewhat more richly coloured and a more
compact grower.
HTH.
Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

Thanks Dave. Pulling things around on carts or sliding then on carpets is a
necessity in this part of Yorkshire, particularly if you aspire to doing a
junior and amateurish version of the Henry Cooke thing. Curse the day my
sister bought me that book by Myles Challis:-)

[La Puce]

Post by Dave Poole
In the UK Echium pininana is monocarpic (dies after flowering) and not
biennial. It may take 2 or even 3 summers to grow to flowering size
and only very rarely makes enough growth 2 seasons to satisfy the
criteria of being biennial. If sown now and provided the plants are
not killed by cold winter wet, flowers can be expected during May/June
2008 at the earliest.

(snip)

Off course and thank you.